Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

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D16vGTi
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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby D16vGTi » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:14 pm

Homemade launch control sounds interesting and complex :? Drop me a PM Andy :up:
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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby vturbo » Sat May 02, 2009 12:17 am

Hi, sorry not sure how the PM works on here.

you can call me on 01934 520128 if you want to know more.

i'm still working on it at the moment as its got a bit complex with all the functions and menus i have programmed in.

here's a few of them.

1. user definable launch rpm (uses clutch switch)
2. full throttle shifting with programable shift points and shift light controller for optimising available torque (uses engine power curve)
3. boost builder on launch facility with user definable aggression level (built in map sensor)
4. full antilag (optional with additional ICV)
5. quarter mile timers ET,MPH, 60ft, 0-60, etc

Andy.
Projects in hand:

Nissan 200sx s14a 400bhp on E85 custom map, refridgerated water charge cooling.
Westfield kit car awaiting a Warp11 series wound DC motor, Zilla 2k controller and 360V LiFePO4 batt pack.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby GVK » Sat May 02, 2009 11:49 am

To quote your good self Andy..... "sorry to take the piss a bit here"

And people say Stealth's rollers are optimistic :o

213 from an OBD 1 with stock cams :?

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby vturbo » Sat May 02, 2009 12:51 pm

No problem, please take the piss...

hopefully there will be another shootout we can compare figures at soon. Perhaps we can go head to head on the strip one day and find out just who's who?

however, 213 does seem a tad high, i checked the rollers i used and they did have a very recent calibration cert. This is a new road recently put in and setup. I did the power run several times just to make sure and they were all well within 2-3 bhp. I witnessed a Lotus cortina make 149 bhp before my run and the guy had an old Interpro dyno printout from a few weeks before which read 151.2 bhp so i felt this was reasonable proof the measurement was pretty good.

I do understand that all rolling roads/dynos read different and that we can only validate gains before and after mods, but can not quantify them with any real degree of certainty.

I have it on good athority from Steve at C & R that there is no concernable differnce between OBD1 and OBD2 as far as power goes.

As for the cams, well, i have known a few vr6's with stock cams making good high power around 200-210 but lower in the rpm range as long as they have straight through exhuasts. I have also witnessed lots of 264 and 268 camed up vr6's making similar or slightly better power, but higher up the rpm range, so i have never really had too much faith in cams for the vr. If i decide to go further i would rather put a second hand turbo on the vr than cams as this would be the best bang for your buck.

also, dont forget that the standard vr inlet manifold has a serious design floor in that number 1 and 6 cylinders can't get as much airflow as the rest. i spent ages modifying it so they all have the same flow.
this made a big difference.

Whatever my power is it's no where near enough and spending 2k getting it from 200 to 240 ish with big valve head, P&P , cams etc just doesn't seem like a good use of money. I would better of with a 1.8T lump + big turbo + bioethanol = 550bhp.

At the end of the day power is power. What really matters as far as acceleration is concerned, is power to weight ratio. i feel my is around the 240 bhp per ton mark..

Andy
Projects in hand:

Nissan 200sx s14a 400bhp on E85 custom map, refridgerated water charge cooling.
Westfield kit car awaiting a Warp11 series wound DC motor, Zilla 2k controller and 360V LiFePO4 batt pack.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby GVK » Sat May 02, 2009 1:25 pm

If you've ever driven both an early and late VR6 you'll not need Steve Cresswell to tell you that the later engine goes much better. It runs more ignition advance for a start. :up:

I'm very happy with the 268s in my car, coupled with a 3.6 final drive it's very tractable on the road, and lets rip on circuit (with bends)

1/4 mile is a good test but it does depend on driver's skill (imo) and a 'bad' run can be a second slower than a 'good' one.

I agree , good to get all the cars on the same rollers one day - my local club are arranging a day at Powerstation in Tewksbury, all are welcome 8)

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby vturbo » Sat May 02, 2009 5:34 pm

I did not know that the OBD2 vr's run more advance. I will check on this. I assume that they both have the same comp ratio. I understand the 2.9 has a comp ratio higher than the 2.8. Shame the vr has a flat head or i would skim it and raise the comp ratio to around the 15:1 mark, advance the timing and burn E85 permantly

here is a link to the same argument about the obd1 and obd2 myths http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36744

Has anyone any idea of how much better the Raceland 6 branch is over the standard stubbies in real dyno tests. Also there is an item from Dubpower which looks good but has shorter primaries. I have heard that the standard manifold flows well enough for 200 bhp and doesn't hinder performance. However, how can the standard item allow any scavaging to take place when there is no tuned length primaries.

Another point, as the vr head has 3 long and 3 short exhaust runners, shouldn't the raceland manifold mirror this in its design so all the primaries including head runners have equal lengths to the collector?

Yes, i would like to attend the next shootout if my car ever gets legal again. I'm struggling to find a set of arches wide enough to cope with the wheels.

Andy
Projects in hand:

Nissan 200sx s14a 400bhp on E85 custom map, refridgerated water charge cooling.
Westfield kit car awaiting a Warp11 series wound DC motor, Zilla 2k controller and 360V LiFePO4 batt pack.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby United Motorsport » Sat May 02, 2009 6:29 pm

vturbo wrote:I did not know that the OBD2 vr's run more advance. I will check on this. I assume that they both have the same comp ratio. I understand the 2.9 has a comp ratio higher than the 2.8. Shame the vr has a flat head or i would skim it and raise the comp ratio to around the 15:1 mark, advance the timing and burn E85 permantly


The difference between the OBD1 and OBD2 regarding timing is that OBD2 has ALOT better knock control. So when Gary says more advance he means in fact less knock retard, resulting in more applied ignition timing.

OBD2 is alot more advanced than the OBD1 systems.

The 2.9 does have a slightly higher compression ratio as stock compared to the 2.8. it also has different cams as standard.

Tuning E85 is real nice, and even better on boost.


vturbo wrote:Another point, as the vr head has 3 long and 3 short exhaust runners, shouldn't the raceland manifold mirror this in its design so all the primaries including head runners have equal lengths to the collector?


Correct

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby vturbo » Sun May 03, 2009 12:49 am

Ok, i stand corrected on the knock control perhaps. I wonder if my knock sensors good?? maybe my high power figure could be due to my knock detection being faulty and risking det.

I understand the 2.9s get too hot and because of this the 2.8s can and do make better power when modded. (another Steve quote). I have heard of more 2.9s going bang than 2.8s i have to admit, but that's because the head gasket becomes too thin from the extra wide bores i assume

can an obd1 be converted to an obd2? what is involved?
also, what are the best options for a 6 branch manifold, is it just the Raceland ebay job or is there a better option?

Andy
Projects in hand:

Nissan 200sx s14a 400bhp on E85 custom map, refridgerated water charge cooling.
Westfield kit car awaiting a Warp11 series wound DC motor, Zilla 2k controller and 360V LiFePO4 batt pack.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby sacvwgolf » Sun May 03, 2009 9:25 am

OBD1 can be converted to OBD2. It requires a swap of the thottle body, inlet manifold, wiring, ecu and transponder. I thinks that its?

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby vturbo » Sun May 03, 2009 12:10 pm

transponder?

andy
Projects in hand:

Nissan 200sx s14a 400bhp on E85 custom map, refridgerated water charge cooling.
Westfield kit car awaiting a Warp11 series wound DC motor, Zilla 2k controller and 360V LiFePO4 batt pack.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby United Motorsport » Sun May 03, 2009 2:56 pm

vturbo wrote:transponder?


This is used with the immobilizer system than OBD2 has, as well as some of the later OBD1.

You need the key etc that goes with the ecu or have the immobilizer removed.

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Re: Mk2 VR6 dyno / RR results

Postby SimonABT » Sun May 03, 2009 6:22 pm

I can safely vouch for Andy's Mk2... 4 words.... SH!T OFF A SHOVEL :shock: Not the prettiest car in the world eh Andy but my god it goes some! 8)
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